rental laws?

[danaeris]

Our Lease claims that we have to pay 30% of the water bill for the building (the businesses downstairs pay the other 70%).

Q insists that this is illegal and that we don't have to pay it, and that if we continue to not pay it the bill will just go away when the building sells. But it has now been more than half a year and we've gotten a legal notice from our landlady stating that we owe $150 for those months of water bills.

Anyone know the legalities of this or where we can look it up?

Comments

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

Just fyi, that's about what we pay per month, and we have a yard with grass. If it's part of your lease, and you signed it, it might be legal. You might have to renegotiate. That said, you're paying an awful lot.

[danaeris.livejournal.com]

$150 for 7 months seems reasonable... or is that still a lot?

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

Eh. I did poor math. That's a little over $25/month, so that's not horrible. We pay about $35/month. But again, we have a lawn. And Casey takes 30-min showers half the time (and not much shorter the other half).

[danaeris.livejournal.com]

True, but we have three people and you only have two, so that may make the difference.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

I didn't realize you had three.

[lyricagent.livejournal.com]

I'm not an expert, but if it is in your lease, and you signed it and agreed to it, you're pretty much stuck paying it at least in the short term otherwise you're in violation of your lease and you can get evicted.

http://www.ci.sf.ca.us/site/rentboard_index.asp has the rental ordinances for SF posted.

[danaeris.livejournal.com]

hm... can't find anything that says it is or isn't illegal, although there is stuff that seems to assume that the landlord is paying the water bills. I will probably call them up tomorrow.

It IS clear to me, however, that if Q is wrong and we don't pay that bill before the building sells, the new owner will have grounds to evict us. How convenient.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

In Fremont, the tenant is responsible for what the lease says the tenant is responsible for -- yard care, pool upkeep, etc. If your lease says exactly that you'll pay 30%, you're almost certainly obligated to do so until you renegotiate.

[princeofwands.livejournal.com]

I've heard this tactic taken over electricity before, but never water. In any case, it ought to be the same thing.

SF (CA on whole?) tenants' rights seem to include a right to individually metered utilities. If you want to fight the 30/70 split, you can pretty easily force the landlord into paying city authorized plumbing/contracting to come out, break out the plumbing and put in new downstream meters so that you can know how much you use compared to the downstairs business and then pay a proportional split of that.

Also, being forced into that situation is something the landlord can terminate your lease over. (The residence is, per ordinance, not habitable due to unmetered utilities, as raised by the tenant!) So it's a big gamble to push it.

FYI - I've consistently paid about $0.25/person/day here in hayward for water for the last 6 years.

[thornedillusion.livejournal.com]

Regardless of the law, if you agreed to pay 30% of the water by signing a lease that included that you have to pay it. Not paying amounts to violating the terms of your lease and you can be evicted.

(BTW, I'm Selena from the GGPET Munches and Sin. I wore the totally non-functional latex outfit to Slick that wouldn't let me bend enough to sit. I'm also on the LWOB mailing list but have yet to make it to a meeting.)

[nathanjw]

Violating terms of your lease that are illegal is *not* grounds for eviction or other action against the tenant. The landlord has no right to enforce contract terms that are contrary to the law.

As to this particular issue, I don't know what the situation is in California, having not lived there and done the homework. A quick web search makes it look like some kind of billing to the apartment is legitimate, whether estimated or directly measured. I'm afraid that Q might be remembering *Massachusetts* law, where he would be right - here, landlords must pay the water bill, period, and may not pass it along (except insofar as it may change what rent they set for the term of the lease). This has been tested in court, and provisions of a lease that required the tenants to pay the water bill were thrown out... and yet landlords still try to put such clauses into leases to get more money out of the unwary. Additionally, Massachusetts has no provisions for "estimated" utility costs - either units are separately metered for billable utilities like gas, oil, and electricity, or the landlord must pay (with some minor exceptions for things like lights in common entryways).

I would call up a local housing agency or an attorney specializing in landlord-tenant law to find out the real scoop; there could be city or county laws that are relevant in addition to state ones.

[thornedillusion.livejournal.com]

It just occurred to me that in California, the laws can vary from county to county. In Sonoma County, where my mother lives, the water can be (and often is) tacked on in addition to the rent. In most instances, the water is separately metered, but not in all. When the water is not separately metered, the renter pays an agreed to percentage of the bill as laid out in their lease. (feeling stupid for forgetting how much renters' rights can vary here)

The best bet is to talk to the housing board for your county and find out exactly what your rights are on the matter. If the landlord is required to meter your water separately if they expect you to pay, then the local housing board would know this and you could easily find this out w/o exposing yourself to possible problems with the space being declared uninhabitable.

[auros]

I know that at least down where I am (South Bay), it's pretty standard for units to be individually metered for water; when I was looking for a place 1.5 years ago, every apartment I looked at had the tenants paying individual water bills, IIRC. I'm pretty sure it's also legal to run it that way in Berkeley, though it seems to be somewhat more common up there to see it bundled in with rent. I haven't heard of anyone doing that "estimate" thing, paying a percentage, but unless I had a lawyer to tell me otherwise, I'd go with the assumption that it's legit and pay up to avoid the eviction. If it turns out to be illegal, you can always threaten a legal action if they don't give it back.

[redhawke.livejournal.com]

Q insists that this is illegal and that we don't have to pay it, and that if we continue to not pay it the bill will just go away when the building sells.

Whether the LL is in the right or in the wrong, ignoring the situation is probably the WORST possible way to deal with this sort of problem. I did a little checking, but what I found wasn't completely spot-on to your situation. However, I did find this: The SF Rent Stabilization Board counseling number. Important info:

Counseling

You can receive personal assistance by phone during certain hours, or by visiting our offices during regular office hours.

• Visit our office during regular office hours. Those issues that cannot be resolved within our timelimits will, at the counselors" discretion, be scheduled for an appointment.
  
• Phone Counseling Hours are 9 AM - NOON and 1 - 4 PM on work days ( Monday through Friday, except holidays) 415.252.4602. Because of demand, calls may be limited to 5 minutes.
  
• Please have your questions written down before you speak with a counselor.
  
• Multiple Language assistance: We have bilingual staff and there is limited information on the 24 hour information line in Chinese and Spanish.

Key words to remember for the councelor:

Utility Passthrough - this sounds an awful lot like what you're dealing with, but I'm not sure.

More on Utility Passthroughs.

Good luck!

[elf]

It's my understanding that the law requires you be billed for utilities by the util company... a landlord can either require $X per month, or hand you the bill for *your unit*, but cannot take a multi-unit bill and divide it between the renters.

However, your lease can maybe bend that.
Go find a lawyer (people's advocacy ones are good), and ask if this is a legitamate clause in the lease.

Possibilities:
1) It is completely legal, and I have been misinformed.
2) It is not normally legal, but if you agreed to it, you have to pay that way.
3) It is not legal, but you can still get evicted for not paying, until/unless you have a court order saying you don't need to pay. (This is the case for things like "building's not up to livable code:" you still have to pay rent, and after you file your court case, you can get a refund for what you've paid.)
4) It is completely illegal, and you don't have to pay it at all... in the same category as "renter must perform sexual favors for landlord," they can't throw you out for insisting you're not gonna do it.

My guess is #3. Pay your bill, keep a record, check laws (Nolo Press has a guide for California renters), and get ready to send a note to your landlord that you believe the utility bill is illegal.

Several landlords do this when they have older buildings that have been split into multiple units, but they don't want to pay to set up the utilities to be separately metered.

This is in the same legal category as sharing a phone line with someone else, and agreeing that you will pay "30%" of the bill, regardless of who called where. You're potentially being asked to pay for water you didn't use.

Practical notes: if you don't pay it, very likely the worst that will happen is you'll get an eviction notice. Possibly it will make ugly marks on your credit rating... but also possibly you can challenge it then.

Start by asking for a montly water bill, separate from any other bill you're expected to pay. This gives you documentation. If she wants to bill you for the last 7 months, get an itemized bill. (I don't know if she's been sending you a monthly bill, with "here's your 30%" circled.)

Nother tactic: Call the WATER COMPANY and ask them how this works--how you can be billed for water use in a non-metered unit. (Don't try to imply that you don't have to pay. Ask how you're supposed to be billed; tell 'em it's to keep your accounting straight.)