Friendships and confidance and "talking dirt"

[danaeris]

A while ago, I was hanging out with some people I did not know very well, who are also poly. I observed that in cities where my friends are not available to occasionally hang out one-on-one, I have felt lonely or frustrated.

One woman immediately said that she didn't have any friends like that, and several of the other people sitting at the table agreed.

That bothered me at the time, in part because I felt she was speaking in a manner that invalidated and dismissed my experiences.

But more importantly because this is something I think a lot of poly people miss out on. All our one-on-one time gets taken up by dating multiple people, and we have no time to build strong friendships. Which means that when you're having trouble with one SO, the only people you're really close to are your SOs, who are all to some extent biased by the very nature of your relationship with them.

Fast forward to a few days ago, when I was reading some back entries in the polyamory community, and I ran across this entry.

The common thread in peoples' responses to polywolf's post is that it is not appropriate to "talk dirt" in "public." No one defined what it means to be talking dirt, and no one defined what is in public.

This bothers me for a variety of reasons, since this is a question I often struggle with -- I know I tend to be more prone to talk about things than many people. I think there are a lot of good and reasonable reasons to talk in certain circumstances, but I also recognize many of the reasons NOT to talk, and so I'm torn.

This time when I read these words, however, what struck me the most was not the usual arguments for and against public discussion. Rather, what struck me was the juxtaposition of the dismissive woman I spoke with, and what people were saying in the polyamory community.

If we never hang out with friends one-on-one, and we are not allowed to talk about our problems with the people in our lives (also apparently known as talking dirt) in public, then we never get to talk to our friends about it. Combine these two factors and you get a system that doesn't work.

I suppose that someone who falls into both of these categories could arrange a one-one-one conversation with one or two friends when they need advice.

This is an option that troubles me for several reasons. I'm rubbish at deciding who to ask for advice. I don't trust my judgment on who likes me well enough to be willing to take the time to help me out. And in fact, if someone were just *willing* to offer help, I wouldn't want it -- the idea that someone might be helping out of a feeling of irritated obligation is appalling to me. I want help from people who want to help out of care for me, not who are helping because they would feel guilty if they didn't. Meanwhile, I fear rejection when I ask an individual for help. I also believe that sometimes the person who has the wisdom I most need to hear is not the person I think of talking to. Finally, if you only have one on one interactions with someone when you need help, it seems... weird to me. I'm not sure how else to describe it.

That's why I have a history of asking LJ (although often on a tighter filter). It's not an imposition on any particular person, and the people who most want to help are the ones who respond, of their own volition. I don't fear rejection because a lack of response can mean nothing to add, too busy didn't read, or all sorts of things other than "I don't like you enough to offer help and advice."

But, lately, I've felt that asking LJ is causing problems. I do still feel neglected or unloved when there's no response, and some of my closest friends are rubbish at keeping up with LJ and responding. And, I also have been feeling lately that trying to reach out for help and compassion through LJ is standing in the way of developing stronger bonds of friendship. Better that I should meet with people over coffee, chat with specific people over the phone or IM, or even email, than do something as potentially impersonal as LJ.

When you seek someone out for support or help, it generally leaves them feeling flattered, feeling that you respect them and like them. In return, they begin to respect and like you as well. I haven't been providing my friends with that opportunity to feel liked and respected because of the way I've been handling things. Apparently there's even research about this: to get people to like you, you should ask for help. No, I didn't look that up... it was a bit piece in one of the recent issues of the magazine I'm working for that I happened to read while I was getting a feel for the publication.

Anyway, the people espousing these two mores do not, as far as I know, overlap. But I'd be curious to hear how someone with both beliefs functions, and how well it works for them. The answer may lie in their definitions of public and talking dirt.

Comments

[outcastspice.livejournal.com]

well this is interesting. i think you're absolutely right that living in a highly-poly context can certainly cut down on the one-on-one time with platonic friends. and that LJ can be impersonal, and a difficult way to get assistance (although sometimes it can be great). i like think of asking for help as giving friends an opportunity, that's neat. hm... i dont really have anything to add, just wanted to try to validate your feelings.

[pogodragon.livejournal.com]

For me personally, I really value the limited sub-set of my friends that I know I can trust with my *stuff* and to give me sane advice and a reality check if I need it. I tend not to need huge amounts of in-person time with them, IM or e-mail works pretty well, but I definitely value and would miss the 1:1 in person stuff if it were not available.

I also have most of those friends on a very small LJ filter that I can whine at them on. I wouldn't talk about issues with my partners on a wider filter or anywhere public I hope - unless I was very angry/upset/provoked, but not when I was thinking with my sane brain.

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

And in fact, if someone were just *willing* to offer help, I wouldn't want it -- the idea that someone might be helping out of a feeling of irritated obligation is appalling to me. I want help from people who want to help out of care for me, not who are helping because they would feel guilty if they didn't. Meanwhile, I fear rejection when I ask an individual for help. I also believe that sometimes the person who has the wisdom I most need to hear is not the person I think of talking to. Finally, if you only have one on one interactions with someone when you need help, it seems... weird to me. I'm not sure how else to describe it.


FWIW, I think a lot of people feel this way on some level or another.

[bluedaisy.livejournal.com]

I totally understand being afraid to ask any particular person for help or advice, especially if you aren't otherwise spending one-on-one time with them. On the other hand, I also know that fear is not justified---friends who would be willing to talk to you in a public (or semi-public, like LJ) forum about your problems will also be happy to talk to you in private. In fact, I bet you get better advice on average when you ask people personally. You do, of course, have to explain your situation more times, so it might be more work for you than asking a group,
and you may get some people who can't or choose not to help you some of those times, but I still think your average will be higher. (You do have to be careful to remember that even when you ask one-on-one, people may not give advice or blow you off. It still probably does not mean that they don't like you. It probably means that they don't have advice they want to give.)

As a bonus, if you are asking people one-on-one, especially in person, you avoid a lot of the issues with what other people (who may or may not have heard the whole story) think about your conversation with the advice-giver. Less gossip == good all around.

All that said, one on one friendships (with non-SOs) are really important to mental health, and they will help you have friends available who are genuinely happy to talk with you about your problems---especially if you spend time with them when they have problems. Symmetric relationships like that are important.

(as an aside, even though we don't talk often, you should feel free to IM or email or call me if you need someone to talk to)

[lastmx.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm not in the poly camp, so if you're ever looking for an outside perspective...
Just remember, the right shoulder is for punching and the left shoulder is for crying.