On loyalty, honesty, and friendship

[danaeris]

I have a theory of ethical friendship. Let's say I have a friend named Alice.
1. Base your opinions of Alice on your own interactions and observations of Alice
2. When other people describe their experiences with Alice, take those experiences with a huge grain of salt, and try to get Alice's side of the story. Then, based on your knowledge of those other people, your knowledge of Alice, and what they each say when you talk to them about what happened, form your own opinion of what really happened. Sometimes this will coincide with one or another person's perceptions, but that does NOT mean that anyone is taking sides.
3. NEVER TAKE SIDES. Traditional loyalty is bullshit. True friendship is giving a friend a chance to have their say, and to withhold judgement until they have done so. You are NEVER being a friend to someone by assuming that they are right because they are your friend.
4. NEVER TAKE WHAT SOMEONE SAYS AS A FACT. They may not be lying, but they may not have the whole picture of what was going on, they may be subconsciously shading the truth, etc. This is part of being human. It doesn't make them a bad person. You can never get the whole context, but if you listen to BOTH people you can come as close as possible. Listen between the lines based on what you know about Alice, and draw your own conclusions.
5. When other people have a theory about the psychology of Alice, listen to it with interest, and then make your own observations. Compare the theory to your own experiences with Alice, and adopt that theory only if it stands up against your own observations.
6. Above all, be honest and proactively, promptly communicative. If you think Alice has a tendency to pursue people who are bad for her in certain ways, TELL her that. Tell her that you will love her even if she disagrees with you, but that you felt she had a right to know that this was what you were thinking about her.
7. If your theory about Alice that you told her about is proven wrong, admit that you were wrong, and apologize to her.
8. If Alice's theory about YOU is proven RIGHT, admit that you made mistakes and should have listened to Alice, and try to learn from the experience.

Historically, I have often failed in the category of questioning other people's 'facts' and theories, and going and getting the other side of the story promptly (points 3, 4 and 6). In general, I have a history of subconsciously identifying with the people with whom I'm spending
the most time, and of building up resentment against Alice, and of taking a long time to sit down with Alice to "clear the air."

So, I'm sorry I suck at these things, if it has or ever does impact you. I'm trying to Do Right. I'm trying to Do Good. Bear with me.

Comments

[jadia.livejournal.com]

I disagree with #6, actually. I pretty much agree with the other ones, except being a different person, I'd probably phrase it differently.

[hellsop.livejournal.com]

Sometimes #6 isn't useful, but the last part of it, where someone has a *right* to know (if not the desire, or need to) is true. If someone's got the courage to ask what I think, they deserve a real answer.

[jadia.livejournal.com]

I think friends always have a right to my honest opinion if they ask for it, but if they don't, I don't think it's necessarily right to tell them what you think of their actions. Sometimes they don't want to know, or don't care to know, or...etc.

[danaeris.livejournal.com]

I struggle with this a lot.

On the one hand...
people have a right to be treated as they want to be treated. This means that if they don't want your opinion, they should be able to say so and not be forced to hear it.

On the other hand...
if I have a serious issue with a friend that is causing me to lose respect or be angry with them or resentful, I have a lot of trouble maintaining comfort and friendliness to them if I don't put it on the table. I don't really understand how people can go around thinking these negative things about people without TELLING them. To me that feels like lying and dishonesty.

I think to some extent it depends on the severity of your opinion and how much it is impacting your ability to be friends with them.

And, when you come down to it, this may simply be a different style of friendship. In which case, if someone's stated preference is to only get opinions, advice, etc. when asked, and to not have negative opinions communicated, then I guess we're just not going to be good friends. Because as soon as something happens that makes me feel a need to communicate, I will not be able to be close them any more if I can't communicate without violating their own preferences.

That's ok. Not everyone has to be close friends.

[tshuma]

Hmm. I wish I had time to explore this in my own journal. I have a stated (even linked to it in my profile) preference to not receive unsolicited advice, generally because I find unsolicited advice to be "helpy" rather than "helpful". And it annoys me to spend time or energy on explaining why someone's advice doesn't apply to the situation, especially if I'm simply stream-of-consciousness venting about something that makes me upset right now. I will often be pouring text into my journal rather than carefully connecting dots for my readers, but I usually state nowadays which I'm doing -- expressing my feelings about something or describing a problem and seeking solutions.

But I don't want my friends to feel constrained from sharing their opinions about my behavior, even if the opinions would be challenging for me. And I'm not sure how to clearly convey that this is acceptable while maintaining that the other is not.

Okay, food for thought. Thanks. I hope I get more time to think about it.

[danaeris.livejournal.com]

Well, FWIW ditto. It's sort of the difference between off the cuff advice, and a mini, low key intervention. The latter is necessary, the former, inappropriate.

[freefloat.livejournal.com]

In general, I have a history of subconsciously identifying with the people with whom I'm spending the most time, and of building up resentment against Alice, and of taking a long time to sit down with Alice to "clear the air."

Hopefully, in the time(s) you realized you delayed so long in "clearing the air" with Alice(s), that all was forgiven in the end despite the long interval of building up and harboring resentment.

[baniszew.livejournal.com]

A very nice set of guidelines!

[baniszew.livejournal.com]

(With the caveat that one should be tactful when doing number 6, and only push to get a point across to a degree that seems appropriate to the situation and likely to be useful.)

[freefloat.livejournal.com]

Perhaps it would help to approach the friend, indicate you have a few concerns, and ask if they want to honestly hear them without judging you by them?

[hopeforyou.livejournal.com]

I think there's a lot of good stuff here, but I would add clauses.

4a) One exception is if you have documented proof that Alice did what she did and said what she said, in her own words. Documented proof may be words on Usenet, emails with the original headers, audio and video recordings of Alice that show that the facts others state about Alice are in fact true.

5a) Note that you may need to collect data about Alice's behaviour over time. First impressions can be misleading, especially if Alice is charming yet an utter sociopath. Many people don't know how someone is unless they've known them over time, in various contexts -- rather than a handful of brief meetings and isolated incidents.

[tshuma]

It occurred to me rather belatedly that this post could apply to a situation in my own life of which you would have been peripherally aware, as you were physically present within the social spheres here back then. I'm aware that it's probably *not* about that, given how long ago that all was and how distantly you know me, but on the off chance that it was or that it applies to that situation as well as the one by which you were inspired to write: thank you. And even if it's not directed at that situation or applicable to it from your point of view, it's still a good thing to learn about you.

Go you for trying to do good and right. I struggle with it a lot, myself.