Very distressed Danae (distressing content to follow)

[danaeris]

I keep on bursting back into tears.

It started with this:
Read with caution; details a very recent gay/trans hate crime on par with Matthew Shepard or Gwen Araujo

As I read it, I teared up a little. I was also a little nauseous, a new experience for me when reading something like that. My mother came into the kitchen and asked me what was wrong. I showed her a picture of Amancio, and explained what had been done to him.

"She was an idiot, of course." My mother asked why. I explained that unfortunately, in this day and age, flirting in drag with straight men in a straight bar is a dangerous activity.

She didn't say much. I said, "She was only 23." My mother said, "She didn't look that young."

Then she said to me, "What I don't think you're getting is that these men felt tricked and deceived." I looked at her in disbelief. "That doesn't justify what they did," I said, and my mother responded, "No, nothing justifies murder."

I shook my head. "This wasn't just murder Mom." I described what they did to Amancio. "It was the worst kind of hate crime."

The conversation went on. She seemed to be saying that these men's homophobia somehow justified the crime, or lessened their culpability.

I suggested the following example: If I were married, and went to a bar and flirted with a man, and then he found out I was married, took me to the river, raped me, slit my throat and cut off my wedding ring finger, it would be comparable.

And my mother said that it wasn't, because men are weird about their sexuality.

I was pretty upset and agitated at this point. I explained to my mother, not particularly calmly, that this is what the gay movement is about, aside from the goal of acquiring equal rights. That society as it stands promotes homophobia, will result in reactions like this at the end of the spectrum -- and that's not an acceptable status quo. Queer people shouldn't have to live in fear of their lives. So, the so-called gay agenda is simple: equality, tolerance, and acceptance. To reach a point in society where this sort of behaviour isn't considered acceptable legally OR culturally. To send the message that it isn't okay loud and clear.

I explained that the ideal is a society in which the murder of Amancio, Gwen, or Matthew, would be considered equally atrocious to the scenario I described above.

She grudgingly admitted that in such a society, that would be the case, but said that she questioned whether such a point could ever be reached. The implication was that she believed that homophobia and insecurity about sexuality is an inherently male characteristic (a preposterous attitude that betrays ignorance of other cultures in the present as well as throughout history).

I retreated to my room at that point, and sobbed and cried on merovingian's virtual shoulder. I've finally stopped crying now, although I still feel nauseous.

My immediate reaction to my mother's responses was to feel that I could not live with this woman. To feel a need to be with My People, people who understood all of this, people who are also queer. I may be overreacting, or caught up in the moment of sorrow and mourning for this person I never knew. I really don't know. But I am THIS CLOSE to ditching all of my hopes of saving extra money up, and moving to Toronto, to get out of this house.

Gentle sanity checks are welcome.

Comments

[wytetygryss.livejournal.com]

Your reaction is perfectly understandable. If you still feel that way in a few days I would say moving is definitely worth thinking hard about. I don't know for sure what your finances are like so I can't comment on that aspect of it, but if you think you can manage and you really can't continue to live with your mother, then start making plans.

I hadn't heard about this story at all... it is very sad and deeply disturbing. And I hope they can get the bastards that did it and put them away for a very, very long time.

[caiteag.livejournal.com]

I think the sad reality is somewhere between your reaction and your mothers. NOTHING justifies murder. NOTHING justifies hate crimes like this. At the same time, men, in North American culture ARE socialized to be twitchy about their sexuality and this was an INCREDIBLY stupid thing to do.

Please remember, I am queer and poly... this touches home with me.. I understand the horror and betrayal of something like this.. but I also know that we live in a world where things like this do happen and so did this young man. Would I love to be able to walk down the street holding BOTH my partner's hands? Sure. Can I? Nope. It isn't safe. What this young man did was incredibly dangerous, and I think maybe, even if your mom didn't understand how hard this hit you, that is the point she was trying to make. No, being stupid and gay doesn't mean you deserve to be murdered so despicably. Again, NOTHING could justify the actions of the murderer(s)... but we have to look at the situation in a realistic manner... and realistically... he humiliated men who have a lot of pride in appearing straight and they punished him for it. Do I wish the world didn't work that way?? Of course I do. I am sickened by the thought of this. But I'm not going to change the world single handed.. neither are you...

Talk to your mom calmly about this... maybe you can change her way of seeing it... maybe you can't... don't change long term plans because you are emotionally distraught. Wait it out. Understand that your mother comes from a very different generation and lives in a different reality than you do. If you show her that you are trying see things from her point of view, maybe she'll learn to see from yours. You may never agree, but you may be able to meet somewhere in the middle... and if, after you have handled things calmly and thought everything out.. if you still feel you need to move.. then take your time and do it right.

[purplesofa.livejournal.com]

Huuugs. This sounded rather like an argument with my mom.

Here's a theory that sorta excuses your mother:
Our mothers grew up when feminism was a little less advanced, and men's insecurity about their sexuality was a little more accepted. Your mom may prefer to just "accept that that's the way men are". It's easier than sustaining the anger and determination required to change men and change society. (This applies to any form of social change: it's easier to give up and be fatalistic.)

Arguing isn't going to to change your mom's attitudes much. Moving out isn't going to change your mom's attitudes either. Moving out isn't going to change the fact that you're related to somebody (probably many people) with less progressive views. Whether you live with your mom or not, she won't give you the kind of emotional support you needed this evening. There are certain topics you'll want to avoid with your mom, unless you want a difficult discussion; doesn't matter if you avoid them at the dinner table or on the phone.

That being said, I think there's a reason people leave home when they grow up. When we've developed our own attitudes and preferences (on sexuality or on sofa colour schemes), it's time to live independent lives. So you'll probably be happier living on your own - but moving out tomorrow will just extend tonight's argument. Try calming down for a few days, avoiding controversial topics, getting support from friends, and then go apartment hunting.

[/pontification]

[yiab.livejournal.com]

i might be wrong, but as i understand it this murder is looked at by society at large as being considerably more atrocious than the situation you described above involving marital status. i don't consider that sort of backlash to be a proper reaction either - it only strengthens the resolve of people who would do this sort of horrendous thing.

remember that men, from a very young age, are trained in rather homophobic ways, and as a result even the more accepting among "average men" don't have an easy time dealing with it. these men were clearly not among the more accepting.

i am not trying to say that this in any way justifies their actions, but it provide something of an explanation. to paraphrase a documentary i saw recently, "with this information, [this murder] is made no less shocking, merely less surprising."

it doesn't sound to me like your mother is misunderstanding what you're saying, instead it sounds like she's trying to answer the question that comes into many peoples' minds on hearing of this sort of atrocity: "why, god, why?"

[velvetpage.livejournal.com]

My grade fives consider calling someone gay one of the worst insults they can hurl. I have had nothing but grief from them every time I've called them on it - first, any kind of sexual harassment is just plain wrong, and second, there's nothing wrong with being gay. Most of my kids haven't hit puberty yet, but they already know that society expects people to be straight. Most of them would probably sympathise more with your mother than with you.

Your mother seems to be just barely on the intolerant side of the line. She's prepared to admit that the murder was heinous, but she takes "this person was stupid to provoke those guys" and switches it to, "those guys had some small justification for what they did." There's a fine line there that separates the truly modern viewpoint from the one just before it - as one commenter said, the early-feminist viewpoint. It's up to you if you can find a way to live with that difference or not.

The othe part of the problem is that your mother doesn't seem to be very empathetic. She doesn't know how to say things or do things so that people feel better. I don't know if she was trying but was too uncomfortable to reach out, or if she simply didn't realize she needed to reach out. Either way, it's the same result for you: she is incapable of supporting you emotionally. From what you've said in the past, I don't get the feeling she ever knew how to reach out.

Feel better. We can talk it all out tonight.

[sassy-fae.livejournal.com]

Your mother is wrong, but she does appear to be trying to understand your point of view. It takes a long time to overturn outdated beliefs, and she is a lot more progressive than some parents out there (unfortunate as that may be). That being said, I can totally see why you're this upset with her, and it might not be something that you're able to change about her, at least not overnight.
Given a few days and a couple fun parties, you'll be feeling less distraught with her. Don't let this foil your plans and goals, things will get better.

[benndragon.livejournal.com]

I don't know how racial relations are up there (i.e. if you guys had/have the massives problems we did/do with racism in the US), but that would be the comparison that immediately pops into my mind: "A black chik walking in the white part of town is just asking to get raped and murdered. You can't change racial hatred, people have a biological imperative to prevent genes different from their own from propogating, so any obvious visual difference will trigger that evolutionary response." (incidentally, anyone who uses the "they're born that way" arguement immediately gets the hand from me - tendencies are inborn, not actual behaviors)

Would it have helped to say something like "Look, this conversation and your attitudes are making me very upset, can you either comfort me or shut up and go away"?

[plymouth.livejournal.com]

Would it have helped to say something like "Look, this conversation and your attitudes are making me very upset, can you either comfort me or shut up and go away"?

That's very much what I was thinking. The conversation started because dana was upset and her mom was concerned about it. Asking a crying person "what's wrong?" and then proceedign to argue with them about what is upsetting them is incredibly insensitive, whether the issue is gay tolerance or anything else.

[danaeris.livejournal.com]

Actually, your view does not really differ at all from mine; note that I started the conversation with my mother by saying that Amancio was stupid to do this.

Thank you for your words... they were considered, thoughtful of my feelings, and helpful.

[danaeris.livejournal.com]

Framing it in terms of the feminism of her time vs. today's progressive views is helpful, and an insight which had not occurred to me. My mother has often made comments which strike me as awfully feminist (for instance, about my choosing to wear corsets or have long hair) in an old fashioned way. So, your theory may apply here as you suspected.

I don't know if I'll move out in the short term at this point, but I certainly wasn't planning on packing my bags tomorrow. Nonetheless, your calm and considered thoughts were helpful.

[danaeris.livejournal.com]

I like that quote. Alas, the debate with my mother, I suspect, was centred upon the culpability and guilt of the perpetrators rather than the reaction we ought to have to the crime. But, some similar sentence might be appropriate (and yours certainly still applies).

I'm not sure what my mother was trying to accomplish. It's clear that she wasn't engaging her brain by the fact that she tried to argue with me about this when I was clearly in need of comforting, not debate, and she's realized that now and apologized.

At some point I will have to engage her about this, but I'll have to do it when I am able to stay calm. *sigh*

[danaeris.livejournal.com]

The line you are suggesting seems accurate to me. Although, I would frame it in terms of who she empathizes with.

I see it from the point of view of the victim. I say the victim was stupid to do this, and although a person should be able to do something like this without fear of retaliation, that is not the world we live in today.

My mother identifies more with the perpetrators or perhaps more correctly, does NOT identify with the victim. The male pride was hurt so it is UNDERSTANDABLE that the perpetrators would do this horrible thing.

I'll have to write more on this in another entry later. But, for the time being, thanks for the comment which prompted a new way of looking at the situation.

[danaeris.livejournal.com]

*hugs* thanks sweetie

[danaeris.livejournal.com]

Well, rather than communicating with my mother that this conversation was distressing me, I withdrew myself from the common space. But as you guys say (and my mother later realized), she handled the situation poorly all specific issues aside.

[danaeris.livejournal.com]

Thanks for responding... It helped to have understanding words so quickly after my post.

The story is extremely recent, if you look at the dates. A lot of the facts in that link are currently unverified by a mainstream news source.

[wytetygryss.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you seem to be feeling better about it with a bit of time and space and your mother's realization she didn't handle it well...