Google / Mountain View

[danaeris]

If you've never associated with Google on a professional level or lived in the Bay Area, you can ignore this post

A friend of mine, metawade, is applying to work at Google. He is a nifty poly transhumanist with a Ph.D. in Computer Science who has been being a Professor, but is sick of academia. He's specifically applying to research scientist and software engineering positions.

Questions:
(1) Anyone who has applied to Google willing to offer him advice or descriptions of your experiences? Please leave it for him here, or alternatively visit his LJ and leave it as a comment there.
(2) Anyone who works or has worked at Google have any thoughts to share with him?
(3) He was thinking of ditching his car. I told him that working in Mountain View and having an active social life (one of his motivations for moving to the Bay Area) without a car would be very difficult. Anyone have insight on this? Am I wrong?

Comments

[hellsop.livejournal.com]

Depends on WHERE he wants to have an active social life, and how late, and whom he wants to have it with. The transit options on the penninsula DO work, and cover many things. I think a bigger issue will be "Can he conveniently get to work without a car?"

[metawade.livejournal.com]

My social life requirements are fairly basic really. I currently live in a place where the concept of polyamory is unknown to almost everyone. I want to live someplace where the concept is more commonly known. I've only had commentary on the poly scene in SFBA from one person, who isn't particularily impressed with it - thoughts and opinions for others would be useful.

[cortneyofeden.livejournal.com]

There are ways to get around the Bay Area without a car. However, they take long periods of time, and between certain areas are decidedly supoptimal.

The poly community here is quite spread out. I know folks whose sweeties all live within a small distance, but it's also not unheard of to have a sweetie who lives in the Bay Area but takes 1.5 hours to get to.

My suggestion would be to not ditch your car until you've gotten a grasp of the spread of where you'll want to be going. Unless you're just feeling adventurous.

CalTrain is great. BART is great. Light rail is great. They're all utterly un-unified and not especially easy to change between.

I'd be happy to tell you more about things you wish to know more about here. I just don't know where to go with it. I have friends who work for Google and love it. I don't work anywhere, I'm just a grad student. :P

[metawade.livejournal.com]

This feedback is fantasic! Thanks Cortney!

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

There's a bus that runs from Los Altos, through downtown Mountain View (Castro St.) and through the Shoreline area where most of Google sits. But that works only if you live along the line, or else are willing to transfer between busses or from commuter rail (Caltrain). Doable, but probably 2x the time by car if you live in the area, unless you lived 40 miles away (San Francisco, or Gilroy) in which case the train-bus transfer is faster than the traffic.

However, socially... poly events tend to be spread. For some reason, there are more in the East Bay (Berkeley, Oakland, San Leandro, etc) than on the Peninsula or South Bay. Circulating requires a willingness to go 20-30 miles after work to whatever poly event.

To go carless, it would be hard... but possible, if you lived near BART and Caltrain in SF, which would give you East Bay access via BART and commuter rail down to Google (but 90 min each way).

[danaeris.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I thought there was tea and sympathy, and the south bay social, and of course the PPP, all of which are south bay. But, it has been two years, so things may have changed

[karenbynight.livejournal.com]

The PPP is East Bay, in San Leandro.

[metawade.livejournal.com]

Hi Brian - appreciate the info. It is looking like carlessness isn't as practical as I thought it would be.

I've heard that the poly events are spread out - oh well, it will give me a means of seeing more of the area :-)

[metawade.livejournal.com]

Thanks for posting this Danae. Responses can be added here or here.

Some additional questions:

1. Anyone know the name of the person reviewing software engineering resumes? Not sure if it is remotely relevant, but doesn't hurt to includea personal touch in cover letters?
2. Are there any official resources (from Google) on the interview process? There are oodles and oodles of personal webpages describing interviews (and these are amusing and sometimes useful), but some material on what Google would like interviewees to do (before and during the interview process) would be useful.
3. The online job forms allow one to attach multiple jobs to a submission. Providing customized cover letters would seem to be more useful, and yet I can also see the advantages (from their perspective) in bundling multiple job listings into each submission. Any thoughts on which is preferred by Google?
4. Do Google salaries reflect the high cost of living in SFBA?
5. I've heard lots of hype and positivity about working at Google, but without any negative commentary I remain dubious that I have an accurate appreciation of the relative pros and cons. Any thoughts on this?
6. What are some pros and cons associated with living in the SFBA?

[karenbynight.livejournal.com]

I don't work at google. But I have at least four friends who do.

1) From what I've seen, Google requires all of their employees to do interviews; therefore, after first-line recruiters, your resume could go to anyone.

4) From what I've heard, their salaries are somewhat low within the bay area, but it's claimed that that's made up for in bonuses. I have no way to judge that, as I don't know specifics. The cost of living in the bay area is quite high.

5) The biggest negative I've heard, and the primary reason I haven't pursued a job there, is the "it's not just a job, it's a life" mentality. The most recent hire of my googler friends is single and working 60-hour weeks; I understand that that's typical. They all love their jobs, which is certainly necessary, since they spend so much time doing them. Me, I like my home; I like my partners; I like limiting my total computer time to say 10 hours a day so I can have other hobbies. :-)

6) PRO: big city entertainment. If you like a band, it's probably playing here. If you want, you can be busy every night of the week. PRO: diverse social experience. If you've got an obscure hobby or a fetish, it's probably represented here. There are even sane poly people here. However, for any of those, you have to look closely to find them. :-) CON: either you manage your life carefully, or you spend a hell of a lot of time driving. It's critical to plan your work and house to minimize commute. Getting a new job often requires moving. People turn down nifty new connections because they live, not necesssarily too far away, but too long of a commute away. CON: big city crowdedness. Coming from a small town, this took me a while to get used to. No matter how wacky and unusual my idea of where to go and what to do, there are approximately 1000 people who have thought of it first and 437 people who have decided to do it before me. Alone is rarely an option, outside of one's own house. CON: Still, lack of all-night culture outside of SF proper. Despite being a big city, I can name only around 7 24-hour diners other than Denny's and 4 of them are in SF; the nearest one to my house is 8 miles away. (The town I lived in before moving to the bay area was around 2 miles in diameter.)

[metawade.livejournal.com]

Hi Karen. I very much appreciate the feedback. I really don't object to 60 hour work-weeks if I'm doing something that really doesn't feel like work. The pros and cons about SFBA are very useful - good to know that I need to be careful about managing transportation issues. Sounds like a fun optimization problem :-)

I am constantly amazed at how few cities are 24-7. Sad to hear that SFBA hasn't gotten there.

[epicureanangel.livejournal.com]

I work at Google, in Santa Monica however.

But.. from what I know, there are Google-run shuttles from all over the bay area that bring people to campus. There are a lot of car-less googlers.

1. The hiring process is extremely spread out, many people are a part of it, so there's no one person who will be reviewing your resume.
2. I don't have any oficial resources, but after you submit a resume, a recruiter will probably be your point of contact and be able to answer all your questions.
3. I don't know which is preferred, but Google prefers to hire good people rather than to hire people to fit a single position.
4. Since I'm not in SFBA, I can't answer that, but I believe that Google pays well.
5. Negative - you need to be very self motivated to succeed, it's not an environment for everyone.
6. Again.. I can't answer that for you.

[metawade.livejournal.com]

How do you like Google at Santa Monica? What happens there?

I suspected the hiring process was dealt with by many people, but useful to have confirmation. I also had the impression that Google is more about finding people than about fitting job slots.

Someone else mentioned the self-motivation issue, which is very interesting. And very useful information to have. This can be either a good thing or a bad thing - I can make it more good than bad by being forewarned.

[epicureanangel.livejournal.com]

The Santa Monica office is a lot smaller, but we have many of the same benefits as Mountain View. And the environment is more friendly, given that it's a smaller office and you're more likely to know everyone. Picasa/Picasaweb is the main product here, though work is not always geographically based. The company treats all Googlers equally, no matter which office you're based in.

But in summary, I love it here. I'm exactly where I want to be at this point in my life. I don't think I need to gush about Google.. given that you've probably heard much of the same sentiment from many other sources.

[(Anonymous)]

From a Googler friend of blueelf13 who doesn't want to connect employment with blog identity...

(1) Your resume will be generally screened by recruiters, but they're looking for "Is this a smart person?" rather than "Is this person a specialist / perfect fit for Job X?" There's no need to write tailored cover letters.

(2) Not that I'm aware of. Be solid on algorithms. You will be asked to write code. Google interviewers tend to ask really difficult questions, and it's fine if you don't know the answer or have to be helped there -- we're looking to see how you think, not whether you already know the answer. (So don't get thrown off when you're asked something you don't know.)

(3) It probably doesn't make much difference, but I'd bundle 'em all together. The recruiting organization is a bit scattered, but ultimately this will result in you having a chance at all the positions.

(4) They're telling the truth about the bonuses. Obviously it varies by performance, but my bonus has been about 25%-35% of my base salary for the whole time I've been here (3+ years). Including that, the salary is quite nice. The perks are as unbelievable as you've heard.

(5) I've got some negatives for ya... Google is a 10K-person company trying to run itself like a 200-person startup. Their pathological fear of management was an advantage at the 200-person stage, and is crippling now. Sure, bad pointy-haired bosses can make things worse. But gee, if we held manager candidates to the same high standard that we hold engineering candidates, and if we put as much effort into recruiting them, then we'd have a nice inflow of outstanding managers who would dedicate themselves to removing obstacles for the people reporting to them and making them more productive... which is exactly what we DON'T have. You barely speak to your manager. Managers aren't especially clear on what they're responsible for, but most seem to conclude that they're responsible for strategy and revenue, not people. There's no one whose job it is to notice what you're doing, whether you're struggling, whether you're assigned to anything useful, etc. You need to be very self-motivated and have a lot of initiative to get along. We've tried to bridge the gap with mentors, but mentoring is not rewarded at all, so it's tough. It's nearly impossible to maintain a culture, and I'm concerned that a lot of the new folks aren't being taught the important things like "This is what "Don't Be Evil" means around here". It's not dead, but there's no one owning the responsibility for culture. A little chaos is good, but there's thrash and duplication of effort and other signs that we've exceeded "a little chaos".

You've heard the positives: a company that really does try its best to do the right thing for its users and as a corporate citizen; REALLY smart co-workers who are, by and large, nice folks; the perks are outrageous; "20% projects" are rare but can happen if you have enough initiative and motivation to drive the process (because your manager won't do it for you, of course); nearly all of the processes and rules are sensible and precisely as much structure as you'd want; a company mailing list where you can post a random question like "Hey, anyone play with a Z80 back in the day? Can you tell my why this obscure instruction behaves this way instead of according to spec?" and get five answers back within the hour; a great program of tech talks that are a good way to continue learning on the job; a very open culture; plenty more.

Overall, it's an amazing experience and I'm glad that I'm giving it a try. But it's hard to find a manager who inspires loyalty (not that there aren't nice ones, but they aren't rewarded for any of that silly people-skills stuff, just for launching products -- and it's tough when you have 50 people reporting to you) and I'm not a 60 70 80-hour-work-week kinda person.

I hope that was sufficient to balance out all the rose-colored-glasses reviews. :) I'm still working here, and I'm not planning to leave in the next year. I'm getting a ton out of the experience. But I don't see myself doing it for 40 years, or even 10 years. That having been said, it's an amazing experience.

[getting too long, to be continued...]

[(Anonymous)]

[continuing...]

(6) The Bay Area is great. Big city, suburbs, wide open green space / state parks, all in the same area. Weather is generally beautiful. (A little dreary in the winter, but "45 F and overcast" is better than "10 F and icy slush" back in the Northeast where I'm from.) Mass transit is good in the areas where it exists, but it shuts down too early and doesn't go everywhere. (The Bay Area is BIG -- it's only reasonable that mass transit can't do a great job covering an area that's 70 miles north-to-south and 30 miles west-to-east, but it's all right.) Californians annually forget how to drive in the rain, since they don't see any between May and November. But it's really cool to go to a party and meet people who are famous in the tech community. If you're a geek, living here in your ethnic homeland is an amazing experience. :)

Hope that was useful. Looks like you're getting plenty of input!

[metawade.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Danae, I've received emails indicating that two messages have been posted in response to this message, but I do not see them and assume they are screened. If the person does not want the messages unscreened, could you thank them for me - I greatly appreciate their input, it will be useful. If the screening is due to some other snafu, would you be able to unscreen them? Thanks in advance either way.

[dagibbs.livejournal.com]

Mountain View, in fact all of Silicon Valley, if miles and miles and miles of nigh-endless suburbia. A car is definitely needed.

[metawade.livejournal.com]

It sure is sounding that way!

[plymouth.livejournal.com]

The bus system here is in fact quite a bit better than I think most people realize. I can get pretty much anywhere I need to go with a combination of bus, light rail, and bike (most of the time now I do - I'm down to using my car only about once a week unless it rains heavily). The only time I really NEED the car is to go to the east bay - getting to oakland from my house would require biking to caltrain, taking that to BART, switching to a DIFFERENT BART, and switching from that to whatever local ACTransit bus was going where I was going. I really wish they would complete the rail loop around the bay and connect VTA light rail to BART in Fremont...

[fyfer.livejournal.com]

I would say that a car would improve life substantially. I know a ton of Googlers and almost all of them rely on their cars heavily. However, I do have one friend who is poly, has a very active social life, lives in SF and works at Google in Mountain View, and has no car. (He moved here from NYC, and I wouldn't be surprised if he gives in to the SF car culture within a year.)

Car-share programs like FlexCar, Zipcar, and CityCarShare can work for social events & grocery shopping, if you don't need a car to commute to work. There are shuttles from SF to Google. Living near Google without a car would be harder than living in SF without a car, but Caltrain is an ok way to get to the city and I do have friends in that area who bike to work.

[metawade.livejournal.com]

Appreciate the feedback! Does sound like going carless isn't in the cards in MV. How sad.

[radven.livejournal.com]

Living in the suburbs (even Mountain View) just isn't very exciting, but living in SF rocks.

Google has luxury tour-bus style shuttles that pick up in SF at very geek-friendly hours, and will take you to work with a WiFi signal onboard to make the ride fun.

I have a few friends who have been devoured by Google. They all love it. But I never see them anymore - that is the downside.

That said - if I were to rethink my current life and return to the corporate world, Google is probably the only large company I would even consider.

- chris (hi)

[metawade.livejournal.com]

Hi Chris! Thanks for the info - the shuttles sound like a real option!

I was looking at your profile - those are some damn beautiful pics! Nomadic lifestyles obviously have their advantages too.